"The God Who Wasn't There" - Part 2

So I'm back to watching Brian's little movie.

I'm going to start off tonight by saying that in most cases of ancient historical figures, a period of 40 years between the person's death and their first known biography is actually quite short. For example, the period of time between the death of Muhammed and the first known biography of him is 212 years. The truth is most historians would rejoice at this short a gap.

Also, Luke makes reference to many people writing accounts of Jesus' life before him. So there were other accounts written before his.

Moving on...

Brian talks about the gap between 30 AD and 70 AD, he says that most of what we know about what happened during this gap comes from Paul. We are shown a clip from an old Jesus film. Paul is on the road to Damascus, when he has a vision of Jesus. Jesus asks him, "Why are you persecuting me?" You see, Paul (who is at this point Saul of Tarsus) is very busy persecuting Christians. Brian says, "Paul says the Lord told him to start spreading the word of Jesus Christ, and he did it with avengeance. Paul was a bit of a scold, but the salvation he offered through the god he called Christ Jesus was very popular. He travelled very widely and left behind new Christians who formed the early Christian church. Paul wrote a lot of letters about Christianity, in fact he wrote 80000 words about the Christian religion. These documents represent all we know about Christianity during this decades long gap. And here's the interesting thing: If Jesus was a human who had recently lived, nobody told Paul. Paul never heard of Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem, Herod, John the Baptist, he never heard about any of these miracles. He never quotes anything that Jesus is supposed to have said. He never mentions Jesus having a ministry of any kind at all. He doesn't know about any entrance into Jerusalem, he never mentions Pontius Pilate or a Jewish mob or any trials at all. Paul doesn't know any of what we would call the story of Jesus except for Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension. And even these, Paul never places on earth. Just like the other savior gods of the time, Paul's Christ Jesus died, resurrected and ascended all in the mythical realm."

A few points...

Silence doesn't prove anything. Paul doesn't mention Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem, Herod, this is true. But does that mean he doesn't know about them? I could just as easily say that Agatha Christie doesn't know about Presidents Truman or Eisenhower. Therefore, neither Truman nor Eisenhower existed, right? In order for her to mention these two, there would generally have to be a need for her to mention them. Paul was writing to churches that were already established, in response to things that they asked him. Is there any reason to believe that they wouldn't have known these details already? He didn't write a biography of Jesus, so there wouldn't have been a need to write these details down.

I like what JP Holding has to say about this issue here. "Let's return to the most fundamental basics of writing and communication and ask WHY a certain thing is usually mentioned when we are writing -- and we shall use a commonplace fact that parallels one of our examples.
My wife was born in Granite City, Illinois -- a hardworking steel town across the Mississippi River from St. Louis. I have just told you this basic fact for the first time. Now that you know this, why would I need to ever tell you about it again? Here are some possible reasons:
You have forgotten, and it shows. Perhaps you didn't consider it important enough to remember. That's quite all right, but I won't know that you've forgotten unless you come up with some comment like, "Hey, I was in your wife's hometown the other day. We went to see Disneyland." Now at that point I can guess that you seem to have forgotten that my wife's hometown was Granite City and not LA -- either that, or you have mistaken the St. Louis Arch for something that it isn't. Either way, your error gives me a reason to correct you and say, "No, it was Granite City she was born in. I told you that!" (We'll also include in this area the possibility that I have forgotten that I told you.)
You want to argue about it. For whatever reason, you think I'm lying. Or wrong. Or you just don't believe it. Or someone told you my wife was born in Kokomo, Indiana. Whatever the case, if there is some doubt about it, then I have reason to bring up the subject again.
A change in circumstances, an update, or a correction. OK -- let's suppose the unlikely event that my wife lied to me these past 20 years I've known her, as did her mother, and her family, and they even forged a birth certificate that I've seen that says "Granite City" on it. I find out she was actually born in Tacoma. So I may say to you, "I told you once my wife was born in Granite City. Well, she was actually born in Tacoma." Such an admission of course might follow upon an incident like #2 above, but it might also occur independently. (Similarly, if we once lived in Cheyenne, but moved to St. Paul, we might say, "We moved from Cheyenne to St. Paul." But more likely I'd just say, "We moved to St. Paul" and assume you knew it was from Cheyenne.)"

Besides, Acts reports that Paul heard Stephen's testimony just before his martyrdom. As far as Paul never quoting anything that Jesus said, well how about this:

"And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.'"(1 Corinthians 11:24, NIV)

Hebrews 8:4 appears on the screen:"If Jesus had been on earth, he would never have been a priest".

A couple of quotes about this passage from JP Holding's site here. From an expert in Koine Greek:

"As Ellingworth states in his commentary (p. 405), the translation 'had been,' while technically allowable can easily be misunderstood since this is a Greek conditional contrary-to-fact conditional sentence, which means it cannot be true in what it asserts. The point is that Jesus is not NOW on earth, since he is NOW offering sacrifices. It requires that Jesus was at one time on earth, otherwise the argument does not work.
'Had been' is a poor translation simply because (the Greek word used) does not nor can it have a pluperfect (past perfect) form. It is what we call aspectually vague, but if a pluperfect form were needed by the author, he would have to use a different word or formula to get it (e.g. a periphrastic construction).
Even the commentaries who translate the verse as "had been" note that it only excludes Jesus' present ministry as being on earth, not his presence on earth ever (see Attridge)."

I personally can't find a translation that translates Hebrews 8:4 this way, most say "If he were on earth".

Brian goes on: "Paul doesn't believe that Jesus was ever a human being. He's not even aware of the idea. And he's the link between the timeframe given for the life of Jesus, and the appearance first gospel account of that life. This is why you don't hear many Christian leaders talking about the early days of Christianity. Because when you assemble the facts, the story is that Jesus lived, everyone forgot and then they remembered. But it gets even shakier than that. Allegorical literature was extremely common back then."

Atheist historian Richard Carrier then comes on screen and says:"Mark himself probably did not believe he was writing history. He was writing a symbolic message, he was writing a gospel, and symbolizing it using Biblical parallels, parallels to Pagan religions and so forth". Mike Licona does a good job of answering these two last points in the "Answering Infidels" link below.

Next...the late Alan Dundes, who was an expert in folklore at UC Berkeley. He basically says that once you take the folklore out of the Bible, all you have is begat, begat, begat, begat. You see, Brian draws a false parallel between folklore and myth. It is possible for folklore to develop about a real person! Heck, the folklore itself can be actually true. For example, the story about Babe Ruth pointing his bat is folklore, it's nevertheless true. Academic folklorists like Dundes use a specific definition for the word folklore. "Folklorists generally associate five qualities with true folklore; (1) its content is oral (usually verbal), or custom-related, or material; (2) it is traditional in form and transmission; (3) it exists in different versions; (4) it is usually anonymous; and (5) it tends to become formularized. Each of these terms is used in a broad sense and the first three qualities are the primary ones to be considered in arriving at a clear definition of folklore. . . Generally speaking, then, folklore may be defined as those materials in culture that circulate traditionally among members of any group in different versions, whether in oral form or by means of customary example, as well as the processes of traditional performance and communication." (link here) Note that there's nothing here about whether the story is true or not.

Atheist scholar Robert Price (who was once a Christian) then comes on and questions two events that the gospels report: the slaughter of the innocents and Jesus' trial. For Price, the slaughter of male babies in the area around Bethlehem ordered by Herod is drawn right out of Exodus, and he feels such an event should have been reported by other historians, which it is not. But Bethlehem was only a small village, now honestly how many male infants would there have been? Five? Surely compared to Herod's other atrocities, this pales in comparison. As far as the trial goes, JP Holding does a good job of responding here. Mr. Price then goes on say that there were ancient Jews and Jewish Christians that believed that Jesus had been killed a century before under King Alexander Jannaeus. But the only "ancient" document that says this is called the Toledoth Yeshu here, which was written no earlier than 600 AD, and appears to be a Jewish satire of Christianity. I mean it has Judas and Jesus flying about like people in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Sheesh!

Next up....Barbara and David P. Mikkelson of http://snopes.com/. All they basically say is that sometimes fictional stories develop into stories that are mistakenly thought of as being true. Which of course, does nothing to prove that this happened with the story of Jesus. Brian says he even started one of these stories. Good for him! Moving on...

Here's Alan Dundes again, with a copy of Lord Raglan's book "Hero"(whose work is questioned here). Dundes proceeds to list 22 characteristics of the life of a mythical hero. Here's the list, each point has Brian's evaluation and mine. Mike Licona does the same in his review at the Answering Infidels link below, but I've decided to see what would happen if no half-points are awarded.

1. His mother is a royal virgin. Brian's evaluation: Match. My evaluation: A virgin, but not royal. No match.
2. His father is a king. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Joseph was a carpenter. But since Jesus also calls God his father, I'll give this a match.
3. His father is a relative of his mother. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Huh? I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says Joseph and Mary were related. No match.
4. Circumstances of his conception are unusual. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Match.
5. He’s reputed to be the son of a god. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Match.
6. At birth, an attempt is made by his father to kill him. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Since when is King Herod Jesus' father? No match.
7. He is spirited away and saved. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Jesus’ parents fled with him to Egypt. (1.0 match)
8. Foster parented in a foreign country. Brian: No match. My evaluation: No match.
9. We’re told nothing of his childhood. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Luke's Gospel does mention something of Jesus's childhood. No match.
10. Upon reaching manhood, he returns to his future kingdom. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world. No match.
11. He has a victory over a king, giant, or dragon. Brian: No match. My evaluation: Match. Jesus did resist Satan's temptations.
12. He marries a princess. Brian: No match. My evaluation: No match.
13. He becomes king. Brian: Match. My evaluation: I guess he was considered a king by his disciples. Match.
14. Reigns uneventfully. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Huh? (again) Not only was his life filled with conflict, the last 1970 years haven't exactly been uneventful. No match.
15. Prescribes laws. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Match.
16. He later loses favor with his subjects. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Well, he was welcomed on Palm Sunday, then executed the next Friday.
17. He is driven from the throne of the city. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Jesus was King of Jerusalem? No match.
18. He meets with a mysterious death. Brian: Match. My evaluation: I fail to see how a death by crucifixion is mysterious. No match.
19. His death is often at the top of a hill. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Match.
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him. Brian: Match. My evaluation: Is Brian a fan of the DaVinci Code? No match.
21. His body is not buried. Brian: Match. My evaluation: All four Gospel accounts report Jesus’ burial. No match.
22. Nevertheless, he has one or more holy sepulchers. Brian: Match. My evaluation: I guess he has one located in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Match.

So Brian, out of a score of 22, scores Jesus a 19 which places him in third place. Oedipus gets 22, Theseus gets 20, Jesus gets 19, Romulus and Hercules are tied at 17. My score for Jesus? 10, same as Licona's. I guess I'll leave it up to you to decide whose scoring is more reliable.

Price goes on to talk about some other savior gods of the same time period like Mithras, saying their stories are so similar. Let's see, Mithras was born out of a rock, and slew a cosmic bull to create the universe. Dionysus was born from a virgin named Semele after Zeus impregnated her with a lightning bolt. The bolt fried her to a crisp, leaving a fetal Dionysus, which good ole Z sewed into his thigh. How about Attis? I guess a virgin birth also applies here, though it's more like Mithras. Zeus had some fun with a mountain that looked like the goddess Rhea.

Brian goes on to abuse a quote from Justin Martyr, an early Christian apologist from the second century:

"When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new, or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter" Justin Martyr, "First Apology", Chapter XXI.

But let's take a look at the context of this quote. Justin Martyr's "First Apology" is directed at the Romans who were persecuting the early Christians. The main point he makes is this: that it was utterly unfair for Christians to be persecuted and thrown to the lions in the Colosseum when their beliefs were similar to other religions that weren't being persecuted. "Justin Martyr went so far as to concede certain parallels between Christianity and pagan religions - most likely as a way to bridge the gap between his pagan readers and the Christian faith. He did this in part because of his background in Greek philosophy and in part to legitimize Christianity as a religion that was not so different from other religions that it could not be embraced. At the same time, a careful reading of Justin shows that at every turn he sees the gospel as ultimately unique and thus superior to pagan religions." ("Reinventing Jesus", J. Ed Komoszewski, M. James Sawyer, Daniel B. Wallace, Kregel Publications, 2006, pg. 231) However, it is quite clear that Justin thought of Christ as a man in the flesh:

"For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ; and in obedience to Him, we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue."

"For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed."

"Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods."

These are all quotes from Justin Martyr's First Apology, as well as this one:

"But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically."

Now here comes the forged crucified Orpheus amulet!!

Now Kersey Graves' list of crucified saviors including Beddru!

For a more indepth treatment of the list of crucified saviors click here:http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

Now another quote from Justin Martyr shows on the screen, while Robert Price tells us that the early Church fathers said Satan copied the prophecy about Jesus in advance of his arriving:

"For when they say that Dionysus arose again, and ascended into heaven, is it not evident that the devil has imitated the prophesy?"

Note the words: imitated the prophesy. Meaning the prophesy by the Hebrew prophets. Check Isaiah 53:6-10(NIV):

"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand."

And no, this is not the explanation to this day...see this link:http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

I'm tired....I'll finish the rest of the DVD ASAP.

BTW, I love the treatment JP Holding gives all of this at his cartoon site:http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere.html

Sources:

http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/gospdefhub.html
http://www.tektonics.org/doherty/doherty200.html
http://www.answeringinfidels.com/content/view/87/53/
http://www.tektonics.org/doherty/dohertyhebrews.html
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/fdun.doc
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesustrial.html
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/raglan.html
http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/beddru.html
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html